I verily think no man can be said to have done more good of all those who laboured in the English vineyard. He was the immediate occasion of saving the lives of many hundreds of persons, both ecclesiastical and secular.”
– John Gerard on the remarkable priest-hole carpenter Saint Nicholas Owen
An appropriate analogy. On Dover’s blog, I’ve compared the Pesutto to the character, Theon” in Game of Thrones, castrated by the evil Ramsay Bolton aka Daniel Andrews.
Last night, LGBTQI+ protesters turned up at a church in south-west Sydney to protest Mark Latham. A contingent of, no doubt, Lebanese Maronite men also turned up and basically told them to piss off. The riot police were called. South-west Sydney is NOT inner-city Sydney. South-west Sydney is home to hundreds of thousands of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus. The Christians who live in south-west Sydney are real Christians. They don’t turn the other cheek to crap. Here’s my prediction, there’ll be more violence in the future, and the soy boys from Surry Hills and Newtown won’t win. Oh and so much for “tolerance” and “love”…..of course, we all know, it never had anything to do with tolerance and love.
This morning, a Muslim from south-west Sydney tweeted the following…
“Just caught up with the church incident in belfield. I’d strongly encourage those who don’t like religious beliefs to stay away from churches, mosques and places of worship. If I knew ppl people were going to lakemba mosque to protest against us, I’ve be absolutely livid”.
Quite so. Oh and I’ll be voting One Nation on Saturday.
The Protestant pastors who hid in them during the next several years probably would thank him too.
Moral to the tale is that persecution of fellow Christians is not biblical, as is quite apparent from Jesus’ own teaching.
Regarding the Liberal Party I’m in the phase of “treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector” myself. I hope they will eventually repent, but I suspect that won’t occur.
It’s said that some of his hiding places probably remain undiscovered in great English houses to this day – so technically incredible was his craftsmanship.
————————
I expect from now on that any and all ‘traditional’ causes or principles being represented in the public square will be ‘counter-protested’ by ‘gay pride’ and trans zombies. The media coverage will then be corruptly reported as yet more “evidence” of the “growing threat” of “right-wing extremism.”
On the nazi salute affair, Peter Dutton’s response was as lame and gormless as everything else he weighs into.
The priest holes designed and built by Nicholas Owen were never used to hide “Protestant pastors”. These priest holes were built by Owen in houses belonging to Catholic recusant families such as the Stourtons, Fitzherberts, Welds, Arundells, Howards, Cliffords, Gerards, Petres, Smythes, Throckmortons, Catesbys, Wrights, Vavasours and so on. Almost all of these families remain Catholic, or as they say in England, cradle Catholics. Until emancipation in the 1830s, these families hid priests, particularly during the 1600s and 1700s, when priests were hunted, and if caught, executed.
There are probably still priest holes that are yet to be discovered, so clever was Nicholas Owen.
“It’s said that some of his hiding places probably remain undiscovered in great English houses to this day – so technically incredible was his craftsmanship.”
Snap C.L.
Not to be missed:
Cassie on the fake nazi salute scandal and the Victorian Liberals.
Maybe there was a Protestant version of Mr Owen then?
Clearly the demand was there during the reign of Charlie I.
Memo to Windsors: never name a son Charles.
Charles (later King Charles II) hid in an oak tree during the civil war, and was then helped by a recusant Catholic family. Oh and he wasn’t a “Protestant pastor”.
After the last three years and some people still think we have a functioning democracy.
Denialism causes this.
Cassie – It was “take-turns-to-persecute-the-other-side” whenever a Protestant or Catholic monarch gained the throne. That kept going on until at least the Peace of Westphalia or perhaps the Glorious Revolution. As I said: it was unbiblical.
Both sides weren’t nice to your people either. That is unbiblical too.
My people have nothing to do with the discussion. You made the claim above that…
The Protestant pastors who hid in them during the next several years probably would thank him too.
Well no, not Protestant pastors and not Shiite clerics. Oh and English Catholics in the late 1500s, throughout the 1600s and most of the 1700s were persecuted in England. They endured severe repression.
Queen Mary burnt plenty of Church of England people.
Her Pappy Henry VIII burnt not a few CofE too.
So did Protestants during the reigns of Charles I and Mary. Indeed the Glorious Revolution was in part because of that in James II’s case. His brother Charles II had the right idea before James inherited.
So did Protestants during the reigns of Charles I and Mary.
2 points:
#1. Church of England isn’t Protestant
#2. The Puritans were total pains in the a*se.
Indeed the Glorious Revolution was in part because of that in James II’s case.
There was nothing Glorious about it, it was all about Money and Power
and
James II’s badassery was overstated.
Not quite as inflammatory to arrest the Archbishop of Canterbury as it would be to arrest the Pope, but certainly up there.
“Not quite as inflammatory to arrest the Archbishop of Canterbury as it would be to arrest the Pope, but certainly up there.”
What has this got to do with priest holes and Nicholas Owen? That’s right, nothing. Above you made the comment that protestant pastors hid in priest holes. THEY DID NOT. Once again, you deflect. There’s something wrong with you. You’re not as bright as you think you are.
Cassie, persecution is something I think you do know about, despite your attempt to act thick, which you certainly aren’t! Protestants had to hide from Catholics when the Catholics were in charge. Catholics had to hide from Protestants when the Protestants were in charge. Your people had to hide from the both of them during those centuries.
It is all inconsistent with the New Testament, as I linked. Fundamentally so.
“Cassie, persecution is something I think you do know about, despite your attempt to act thick, which you certainly aren’t!”
JC was right about you. You really cannot admit when you’re wrong, which is quite frequently. And the thick person is you.
I think it’s a good idea to differentiate sectarian wars fought between Christians precisely as Christians and wars fought between states where the combatants happened to be Christians. Not that the latter – of which World War One was the most catastrophic example – are in any wise ‘better’ for not having originated in theology. But it is important to remember that the so-called wars of religion were – IMO – more about the cynical exploitation of theological novelty for the purpose of seizing control of lands and estates than they were about heartfelt religious principle. For the Henricians this was certainly true; they were more interested in robbery than religion. Many such cases on the Continent too.
Please Cassie, I respect you and admire you a lot. How can I reason with you if you won’t reason back?
The time from 1517 to 1815 in Europe is one of the most fascinating periods in history, and I like reading history. Actually I should go back to 1492 at the end of the Reconquista, since Ferdinand and Isabella were complete bastards towards the Sephardim. It was three centuries of ignorance of the Bible, with slow very slow hard won improvement. Improving literacy helped. But now people are turning away from both it and the Torah, again. It won’t go well.
I respect and admire you both!
“Please Cassie, I respect you and admire you a lot. How can I reason with you if you won’t reason back?”
Another passive aggressive put down. Your good at those, aren’t you Brucie?
Cassie – I’m purely honest about what I said, as far as I understand it. Which isn’t to say I am correct even though I think I am. If you regard that as a put-down then I’m sorry you took it that way. I didn’t intend it to be. I am hoping rather to engage your formidable intelligence.
I admit one thing that you seem to find grating is indeed ingrained in my character. It has been for fifty years. That is I expect to take an argument position and defend it. This habit has served me well especially in my work. I have some pretty reasonable achievements as a result. At the same time I have also had long experience with criticism, thus evolving a thick hide. I am battle hardened. But likewise my job has been to recognize when I am wrong…once that has been made clear. On the Cat when that occurs I apologise. By correcting oneself you can get better at stuff, this also has had been good for my work over the years. Holding onto something which isn’t defensible isn’t a profitable approach. That is my experience over a very long time. Before retiring I worked my whole career in private industry, which is less forgiving of wrong views. But at the same time it is necessary to combat-test any hypothesis. You have not yet succeeded in demonstrating my hypotheses are incorrect, but when you do so I will accept that and agree with you. That is how things should be.
Your serve. (I’m not very good at tennis.)
Actually I should go back to 1492 at the end of the Reconquista, since Ferdinand and Isabella were complete bastards towards the Sephardim.
The Sefardis were Tax Farmers for the Moors.
For, oh, about 600 years.
F & I gave them the option:
Convert or leave.
Some say Franco was a descendant of those Conversos.
John Kerry is another one.
Once again there’s that Catholics don’t read the bible, even though it’s their very own book.
The Jews in Spain sided with the Muslims who continued to be a thorn in the side of Catholic Spain.
It’s unfortunate but after the very long and painful reconquista no surprise it ended up you are a Catholic or leave.
“But likewise my job has been to recognize when I am wrong…once that has been made clear. On the Cat when that occurs I apologise.”
No you don’t, you silly man. I think you have a woman problem, you don’t like admitting to a woman you might be wrong.
Ed – I know F & I did that, that was what I was referring to. It isn’t consistent with the teaching from Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament, which honours our Jewish brothers and sisters.
Sometimes it takes a serious number of centuries for something written to be actually get through the thick skulls of the species homo sapiens sapiens. For example the 30 Years War, which more than decimated Europe – all because of people misunderstanding the Bible, on both sides.
I agree CL.
Land, estates, church treasures and spite.
Plain as the nose on your face.
Funny how all that bible learning didn’t stop later far greater persecution of Jews in places like Germany and Hungary.
Yeah, Henry VIII looted the monasteries.
But, guess what?
William The Bastard was the First RCC King of England, he looted the Monasteries too.
Those that he didn’t burn down, which was most of them.
Rosie, please. Both the Protestants and the Catholics learned to read the Bible better over the three centuries after the Reformation. Vatican I and II. It’s just the Protestants were more flamboyant about it.
You haven’t read me being critical of Cdl Pell nor of Benedict XVI, because I am not critical of either man. I am critical of Francis. I’m embarrassed he chose that title, given that bird-loving Francis of Assisi is a bit of a hero of mine.
“Funny how all that bible learning didn’t stop later far greater persecution of Jews in places like Germany and Hungary.”
Yep.
Apart from the 8 months of the Arrow Cross Government, jews weren’t persecuted in Hungary.
As a matter of fact, in 1914, 95% of the World’s Jews lived in Galicia and Ruthenia.
Off the top of my head, Milton and Rose Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, Fed Chair of the Sixties Arthur Burns, Wilhelm Reich and Von Hayek, were all from Ruthenia.
Romans 9:1-5:
Written by St Paul. I don’t see how any Christian can read sections from the New Testament like this one and persecute Jewish people. And there’re many other passages like it.
Um, no.
William The Bastard was the First RC King of England
Um, no.
I think ‘Ed Case meant “I am The Bastard. Who was the first RC King of England?”
Bruce, Scripture has it all, including Scripture itself stating that it’s reading also requires a reading dependent on Revelation, which includes an openness to the Divine in history and tradition, and so is aided with hermeneutics. And a hermeneutic of priest holes – as places of refuge for Catholics from religious persecution – might well disclose that along the ages the same secret spaces hid many a man and possibly some women for any number of reasons, not necessarily Catholic nor always to do with religion. A good priest hole would never be a redundant space. But quite apart from all that, what saintliness on the part of Owen the martyr, in whose light it is shocking to think that the covid years called only for heroism and not martyrdom yet the churches of the day were found wanting.
If only the owner and the carpenter (plus hidden priests) knew where they were it seems unlikely they were used by anyone else.
All I see here is an interesting story about a good and courageous Catholic man being hijacked by a sectarian with some irrelevant what aboutish.
“Rosie says:
22 March, 2023 at 8:52 pm
All I see here is an interesting story about a good and courageous Catholic man being hijacked by a sectarian with some irrelevant what aboutish.”
Quite so.
Is Bruce saying those Recusant families with their priest holes may have saved a few Church of England ministers from the depredations of Queen Mary and James II?
Yeah, I dunno about that, but isn’t it the thought that counts?
So the Catholics had places to hide during the reigns of Elizabeth I and James I, but the Protestants didn’t have places to hide during the reigns of Mary I and Charles I?
And you are happy about that?
Sure the Protestants had a place to hide … these days they call it “America”.
Heh.
The famed work ethic went right out the window when it came to picking cotton, alas.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, but what else are Irishmen any good at?
But we don’t want the Irish.
Irish men are good at telling tall tales; the women are good at holding grudges.
But that’s generalising
Bruce of Newcastle shows good humour and exceptional knowledge; add in bird news from the Cafe Bruce.
And there are others who just don’t like being contradicted.
I don’t know if Bruce is right about the protestant pastors sheltering in Catholic hidey-holes, but as a furious traditionalist Catholic who thinks the current pope has strayed well off the reservation, I’m quite happy if that were the case.
It is said that St Francis de Sales (1567-1622) when appointed bishop of rigidly Calvinist-controlled found that there were a tiny handful of Catholics, because of persecution. Yet when he died, the area under his jurisdiction had converted entirely to Catholicism, except for one or two people. He was in danger of his life for much of his time as bishop. On the other hand he was once caught in a furious snowstorm while missioning to protestants, and guess what? Two local Calvinists found him freezing up a tree, got him down and saved his life. That’s how things go, eh?
I must include another anecdote about this superb saint (if you want your heart to melt, read one of his Sermons). As a youth he had a furious temper. But as he grew older he learned to control it, to the extent that he had a reputation for exceeding mildness. As a bishop, he was ever ready to interrupt his business and receive callers and hear their complaints. There was one particularly obnoxious and persistent visitor whom Francis would never refuse and was exceedingly polite to. This began to infuriate his secretary who, after one prolonged visit, asked Francis: “How can you possibly put up with that infuriating bore for so long?” St Francis calmly replied “Come round here.” and showed him the underside of his desk.
It was caked in blood.
St Francis de Sales, pray for us.
Calvinist- controlled Geneva.
Apologies.